Foil or came?

[Planet Glass]

How do you decide whether to use foil or came in your project?

[Addy]

Personally I use lead even for small designs because I like the way it looks, but I'm increasingly leaning towards copper foil because I can sit in the warm and watch films whilst I foil the pieces! Also lead is getting far more expensive.
I was taught leading in far more detail than foil and I'm never that sure how strong foil is on larger pieces. Do people here use it in windows? I've never done so because I'm not sure about its longevity compared to lead.

[mezalick]

I rarely use foil, it's just a personal choice. Foil can allow for finer details and it can last just as long. Look at some of the Tiffanys from the 1900's
the fine details are usually foil, ( not always most mostly). If you think lead is getting expensive what about the cost of the solder, not to mention the cost of copper.
Michael

[Addy]

If you think lead is getting expensive what about the cost of the solder, not to mention the cost of copper.

I know! Everything is so expensive! But foil is cheaper, for me anyway:
£1.85 for a single lead came or £3.11 for a whole roll of foil. The company I order my lead from doesn't even give prices for boxes of lead any more- it increases so often it's 'Price on Request'!
Ads

[mezalick]

Addy,
What are you paying for your solder?
Michael

[Addy]

Michael-
31p a stick. Also with lead I have to factor in delivery charges for boxes of lead vs the price of a stamp for delivery of foil- I'm living out in the sticks here!
But really cost is never a final deciding factor. If I know it will look good leaded I lead it. If I like the idea of foiling it, I'll foil it. I should've said that one of the main reasons I've got into copper foiling recently is that I'm experimenting with multilayering- making 2 copper foiled panels and holding them together with a wide-heart lead round the edges. It really opens up new ways of creating depth for my designs.

I've been thinking about the lead or foil thing, and it occurred to me I've never seen a foiled window. Or (I think) even a partially foiled one, which is why I guess I was unsure about longevity.
I'm wondering if in America there is a bigger tradition of copper foiling (because of Tiffany) whereas in the UK 'stained glass' is taken to mean 'leaded glass'? I've worked in quite a few stained glass studios in the UK and all their work is leaded. The only time they seem to use foil is during restoration and then really only if a strap-lead is too big. I'd be interested to hear what people think.

[mezalick]

Addy,
Don't be mislead that all Tiffany windows are made with foil. Only a small precentage of his winodws have it and mostly in the very detailed areas.
I my opinion foil became popular because of the hobbiest getting into the trade. I am still confused why some teachers believe that teaching foil is easier then teaching lead.

Here are a few pictures of a mixed window ( Tiffany). The wings of the angels are foiled , But, only on the first layer. The second and third layer are leaded.
Michael

[Addy]

Love the angel. I just assumed they must all be foiled because the method of copper foiling is known as the 'Tiffany method' (?) and the copper-foiling classes I've seen advertised are for 'Tiffany' glass. I did wonder how such big windows could be formed in that way!
I agree, foil isn't really easier than lead- lead is far more forgiving of even learner glass cutting for a start. Though from a design point of view, when designing for lead you need to think about the 'flow' of the leadlines, which isn't easy to get your head round at first. You're right about the hobby-ist thing too, much less equipment & space needed for foiling. I much prefer leading myself, there's something very satisfying about it.
Are you also in the UK? I assume you must be to have been on the board so early!

[mezalick]

Oh you made me laugh.
I'm in Philadelphia PA USA.
I get up early to have a bit of quite time before the shop opens.
The Tiffany method applies to the lamps and has been hijacked by the retail stores so much that it is a generic title.
Band-Aids, Jello, and Asprin are all generic names that ues to be trade mark names.
Where are you at.
Michael

[Addy]

That must be pretty early.
I'm in Wales, right by the Brecon Beacons.

[mezalick]

Oh, you know, early bird gets the worm.
So, your near Swansea ?
Have you been to the school there?
Michael

[Olimpia]

It would be interesting to know the cost of the exact same panel done in foil and done in lead. That would not determine my selection though, I only do lead, even for small areas I use 1/16" lead before I think of foiling.

I think I only foil nuggets to use in grape bunches, that's about it.

.................mostly because I am terrible at it! :o It just takes me forever and my beads leave much to desire.

Olimpia

[mezalick]

OK, How about the time factor.
Once the glass is cut I can lead up a panel faster than I can foil all the pieces.
Then soldering the foil is longer than just at the joints.
But, and there is always a but, there is the matter of the puttying. Foil, no, lead, yes.
But is it a tie ?
This could be a great challange. Maybe even a TV show.
Can you see it know, " Celebrity Stained Glass"

Michael

[Olimpia]

I'm game! lol Not much of a celebrity but there's always an underdog in the celebrity shows, right?

Foiling & Beading vs soldering joints & putty. I'll take soldering a leaded panel and putty anytime!

[mezalick]

I'll be the judge.
I have a lot of striped shirts, or is that just dirt?
Michael

[Addy]

Oh, you know, early bird gets the worm.
So, your near Swansea ?
Have you been to the school there?
Michael

Yes I'm very near Swansea, but I learned stained glass at a place called The International Glass Centre in the West Midlands which is much less well known. I heard that the Swansea glass lot are making a permanent exhibition though so I'm definately going to try & get to see it.

[mezalick]

OK, So I'm up. It's nice to see other are as well.
Addy,
Keep us informaed about Swansea, please. I hear it is a great place, has been for years.
Some day I'll cros the pond to see it for myself.
What are you working on now? Anything interesting you can share?
Michael

[mezalick]

I just looked at your site. Very nice. You have a fresh feel to your designs.
It's nice to see your use of other materials ( copper ) in your work.
Michael

[Addy]

Thanks! I've just spent 2 months making panels for my exhibitition, so now it's time to do some repair work and actually make some money, heh! So nothing very interesting at the moment.
Swansea has a huge reputation- When I went off to learn glass I didn't know about it or I might have gone there instead. I'll keep you posted if I hear anything about it.

[Sass]

I'm very new at stained glass, but have already added a foiler to my tools, and am very happy I did so. Foiling goes so much faster than just by hand!

Right now I'm working on my first window with lead, and really liking the look of it. I did use foil around the flower in the center of my pane, and lead for the rest.

Would be interesting to know which way is faster as well as cheaper, not that either would be a defining factor in which method I choose, just out of curiosity.

[NanaScores]

I just recently bought all the supplies to do some leaded work. Never done any, been reading what I can and will give it shot soon. I learned the foil method right off the bat. The instructor I had did not teach lead. I found another instructor that I am going to sign up for the some lead classes from.

[Vic]

Check out this video on Amazon



Get the Lead Out with Tommy "G"

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Actors: Tommy "G" Giambusso
Directors: Joe Porcelli
Format: NTSC
Region: Region 1 (U.S. and Canada only. Read more about DVD formats.)

Number of discs: 1
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Studio: GCTV Productions
DVD Release Date: February 1, 2003
Run Time: 80 minutes
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Editorial Reviews

Product Description
A Complete Course in Lead Came Stained Glass - This complete training course in lead came stained glass will give you all the help you need to try this gorgeous method of stained glass. Includes discussions and demos covering: selecting the right came, proper tools, setting up properly, soldering, puttying (cementing), framing the finished panel, and more!

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[Sass]

Nana, I learned foil right off the bat, too, and the class I took didn't cover lead. I decided I wanted to work with lead for a window I'd decided to do, and the teachers/owners of the shop where I took the first class were kind enough to talk me through lead, as well. I've found its fun to work with, and no harder than foil, perhaps even easier.

Good luck, and have a great time with it!

[bert weiss]

It is my contention that common sense can go a long way to teach one's self copper foiling. However you must be trained to lead by a master craftsperson. There are so many tricks that just aren't obvious.

I am a believer in the technique of tucking flat leads. This is, in my opinion, the best way to make a strong panel. Maybe the only way. I was taught this by a master and have always been incredibly grateful for the knowledge. I believe this technique must be passed along by personal teaching.

[NanaScores]

Thanks everyone. As soon as I can drive again, I am going to take a course in the lead from a very wonderful teacher, locally. Will let you all know the out come. NanaScores.